Curse

Intera · Apr 20, 2006, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenMonkey

WasAGuest makes strong arguments for PVE players and I can see many casual gamers not wanting to jump on factions.

BTW Oblivion is a great option for PVE players, its a great solo rpg. I could find many reasons why someone would go that route over factions if they aren’t into the competitive nature of factions.

Welcome to the forums ZenMonkey!

I was very interested by your points. Oblivion indeed looks like a solo-ers delight and i've been pining after it for a couple of months. The only problem is its system requirements which to someone like me pose a major issue. To upgrade my computer to be able to play it...well the price would be phenomenal. To play it on an Xbox360, well I don't see $650 (Aus) to play one game as being value for money.

Thus GW provides an adequate alternative for me. It's much cheaper compared to Oblivion and it runs perfectly on my current set-up.

This wasn't made as an attack on you mentioning Oblivion but rather to just speak my mind about Oblivion and Factions cost comparison. Think of your point as the match that lit my thoughts!

hidden_agenda · Apr 20, 2006, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Can I just ask...
How do you know Anet really screwed up the RP portion?.. the game isnt even out yet and the preview event was only a fraction of the full game.

Allow me to clarify: "I think Anet really screwed up the RP portion in Prophecy" that made it (near the end) and less gripping game. Which in turn decrease the interest in Factions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

How did you and your friends originally come to know that prohechies was a good game with a good storyline so much that you went out and all purchased it?

We TRIED it (or rather I tried it, enjoyed it, and convinced others to try it). The main reason I tried it is that I've been interested in MMORPG for a while and it had been the monthly fee that bothered me. Since GW doesn't have a monthly fee, I figure I try it and see what the genre is about.

ZenMonkey · Apr 20, 2006, 05:29 AM // 05:29

WasAGuest-

Thanks for the warm welcome. IMHO you don’t need to apologize for your opinions. It’s a shame people are so quick to jump to calling someone a whiner when they give good feedback.

I just happened to be on the other end of the spectrum. I'm looking for a competitive pvp experience.

I wish Oblivion would make an elder scrolls game where you could have some freinds play with you over the internet.

Thanks for the history of the game. I just always assumed guild wars implied the game was focused on pvp guild battles.

Im looking at factions purely from a pvp perspective. Allowing access to specal instances sounds like a decent reward for winning since you really cant give good rewards because of balancing issues.

I can completely understand the disappointment to fans of the original since the series seems to be changing focus to the part of the game your not into.

I’m looking forward to factions and hearing people scream noob and ownage. I find it amusing. I’m sure ill be hearing a lot of it screamed at me the first month!

Hopefully, they either find a balance so you can join in the fun on this chapter or make chapter 3 more pve oriented then keep switching back and forth. If the developers are listening I say more power to you posting your thoughts.

Intera-
Thanks for the Welcome. I guess I take some things for granted. My work laptop is a powerhouse meant for Engineer software, and i have a 360 at home as well. Its too bad the requirements are so steep, because the game is pretty amazing IMHO.

I must admit as well since i didnt play the original guild wars, I might not understand how casual the first game was for those who just wanted to play some pve with a few friends. WOW is suposed to be considered casual but if you want to go to high end instances you need a large group of players and it stops being casual once your reach the lvl cap. Guild wars sounds casual in comparison so for me its a step in the right direction while to some of the old schoolers it might be a step in the wrong direction.

Althought I have to ask, are mmrpgs really suposed to be as casual as some want? If you just want to just pve it why not just play a regular rpg that allows multiple players to play at the same time? A MRPG if you will, Bioware's games for instance (although I know they are far and few between). Maybe some clever developer will make a game like that but with episodic content.

Please dont take that as an atack. Im just wondering if perhapse that's what PVE players are really looking for?

Asrial · Apr 20, 2006, 05:51 AM // 05:51

I've played GW:P for 1355 hours in 11 months.

- I have 0 fame.
- I've played a contented amount of RA PvP.
- I've not set foot in the FoW, UW, replacement HoH, or Sorrow's Furnace.
- The only special 'non-holiday' item I've acquired is an icy dragon sword.
- It took me 9 months to ascend my first character.
- I just ascended my third character.
- I'm maybe 90% complete on UAS.
- I'm maybe 90% complete on having a character that has uncovered every inch of the map.

Future Goals: Get into some hardcore PvP and explore the four high end areas.

.

If GW:F has the exact same amount of content, that's fine with me because that's another year of enjoyable game playing

Maybe you guys just play too much/fast or don't set goals?

Snowman · Apr 20, 2006, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by hidden_agenda

Allow me to clarify: "I think Anet really screwed up the RP portion in Prophecy" that made it (near the end) and less gripping game. Which in turn decrease the interest in Factions.

Ah, my apolagies! and fair point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hidden_agenda

We TRIED it (or rather I tried it, enjoyed it, and convinced others to try it). The main reason I tried it is that I've been interested in MMORPG for a while and it had been the monthly fee that bothered me. Since GW doesn't have a monthly fee, I figure I try it and see what the genre is about.

well, this was my point.. your friends were never going to buy it in the first place until you convinced them. So they are kinda gona rely on your opinion with factions. so until you HAVE bought it and tried it, you still dont know if your friends will end up buying it or not

WasAGuest · Apr 20, 2006, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenMonkey

I just happened to be on the other end of the spectrum. I'm looking for a competitive pvp experience.

Im looking at factions purely from a pvp perspective. Allowing access to specal instances sounds like a decent reward for winning since you really cant give good rewards because of balancing issues.

If what we see as true for Factions, you should love it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenMonkey

I must admit as well since i didnt play the original guild wars, I might not understand how casual the first game was for those who just wanted to play some pve with a few friends. WOW is suposed to be considered casual but if you want to go to high end instances you need a large group of players and it stops being casual once your reach the lvl cap. Guild wars sounds casual in comparison so for me its a step in the right direction while to some of the old schoolers it might be a step in the wrong direction.

Althought I have to ask, are mmrpgs really suposed to be as casual as some want? If you just want to just pve it why not just play a regular rpg that allows multiple players to play at the same time? A MRPG if you will, Bioware's games for instance (although I know they are far and few between). Maybe some clever developer will make a game like that but with episodic content.

Please dont take that as an atack. Im just wondering if perhapse that's what PVE players are really looking for?

For me it's the multiplayer aspect of it. Having come from EQ (out of it's beta) and played for too many years to remember, GW was a breath of fresh air. As WoW had those high level (end game) quests, EQ was at the time, king of level grind, item farm and all that I've become bored with. Jumping into GW with it's low level cap and items accessable by find or collector, I was able to focus less on the 100 hours farm for item X and the camp area X to reach level 60. This allowed me the benefit of playing the game with friends without the "bleh" or boredom.
There are indeed other rpg's with a semi-tossed in multiplayer aspect, NWN comes to mind as really the only real good one (an opinion of mine), but none to a really good scale such as this.
In knowing this, one can see my angle on the game: Multi-player means Oblivion will hold my attention only so long (a year or so maybe). Farming for items or exp (Fame and Faction Points in GW) becomes boring. That leaves the quests and missions for me to enjoy and we already know, some of that is locked out due to design.

ok, stopping know before I ramble you into boredom. hehe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asrial

Maybe you guys just play too much

My wife would agree to that. hehe

Braggi · Apr 20, 2006, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenMonkey

Althought I have to ask, are mmrpgs really suposed to be as casual as some want? If you just want to just pve it why not just play a regular rpg that allows multiple players to play at the same time? A MRPG if you will, Bioware's games for instance (although I know they are far and few between). Maybe some clever developer will make a game like that but with episodic content.

Please dont take that as an atack. Im just wondering if perhapse that's what PVE players are really looking for?

IMHO PVE people want character development, advancement, usually displayed by levels (stats and/ or better equipment). The more advancement possible here, the less they can play together. GW tries to keep the player base close together - you grow up fast, after that your options grow instead of your strength. But even here there's some bitching about the level cap needed for this.

On the other side of the spectrum you can only make a limited amount of story content. This is much more expensive to create than fighting levels, and I can't imagine someone playing 500 hours of Jade Empire.

Character advancement is an easy goal and implicit reward. I'm rewarded just for playing (and maybe for not dying). Other rewards are in comparison much harder to create for developers.
I agree with WasAGuest here, its a good thing I can concentrate on playing instead of leveling. If the fighting content feels different for each class and different group compositions, then I have a lot of replay value here. Story replay value is, erm, limited.

If a developer can pull it off then he's a 'made man' - players subscribing for content generates a constant, reliable revenue (very much like an MMO, but with less cost for infrastructure). But I'm a sceptic here.

Mordakai · Apr 20, 2006, 01:53 PM // 13:53

This has turned into a great discussion. Amazing what happens when people discuss points rather than resort to personal attacks!

I've played about 3,000 hours, I've only Ascended two characters, and I technically have never actually "finished" the game (the Island of Fire quests remain undone, as do the bonus Glint quests). I have been to UW twice, didn't like it, made up a new character instead.

I think Factions is going to be a lot of fun even without all the Alliance battles and such. I mean, I'm going to try that stuff out, but that's not the main selling point for me. New classes, new skills, new tactics, new quests, oh, and the new shiny weapons and armor are the main things I'm after.

So, although Anet is making an effort to link PvP and PvE, I don't think Factions will force you to play PvP. Sure, you'll miss out on some content, just like PvE only players miss out on some content now. But there sounds like there will be plenty for PvE only players to do, even with all the Alliance battle talk.

WasAGuest · Apr 20, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

This has turned into a great discussion. Amazing what happens when people discuss points rather than resort to personal attacks!

Amazing yes... /sarcasm but my hot dogs and steaks remain uncooked and Loviatar didn't get to model his ever famous "asbestos jammies" /end sarcasm - hehe

For those interested, really good interviews of Jeff Strain at vgmfusion - Episode 46 and 47 had me rather doubtful on Factions, but episode 48 gave me some hope. Again, though, I'll rely on you all for the players info.

Just thought I would share the link for those not knowing where it was. Enjoy.

Alana · Apr 20, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amok

I think a major factor is that people are getting sick of it. When you play the same game for a while the novelty begins to fade. I've experienced this with every game I have played, and expansions/updates/new chapters are just not the same as a brand new game.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be obtuse here, but I fail to see what this has to do with anything. If you play the same game for a while, you will get sick of it. Well, yes. That happens with every game. Guild Wars is no exception. Although it's been a year and I still play the game every day... having a good guild and friends makes that better. Regardless, Chapter 2 is not an expansion in the traditional sense of the word. It is an entirely new game with content equal to the original game. I'm surprised to see all of the negative comments in this thread, honestly. I pre-ordered the game as quickly as I could, and I am very excited to play it.

I hope to see many of you in Factions next week!

Bwsk8 · Apr 20, 2006, 05:56 PM // 17:56

I preodered even though I was dissapointed at the utter lack of new features. No auction house, No friends list messaging system, ect. Things that even free games have.

Evilsod · Apr 20, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

It does seem people want this game to become like Diablo.

How many people who played that actually reached level99? Most got sick of the damn thing before then, specially since once you picked your skills they were fixed.

Lvl20 is a perfectly fine max level. You have plenty of health, plenty of stat points, plenty of skills to choose from. I'm just thankful they removed the 'Refund Points' thing.

Mordakai · Apr 20, 2006, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bwsk8

I preodered even though I was dissapointed at the utter lack of new features. No auction house, No friends list messaging system, ect. Things that even free games have.

There is a Friends list, and you can chat, but you're right, no message leaving or auction house in Factions.

However, the good news is these things will be free to everyone when they come out, NOT linked to a specific Chapter. That's a better solution anyway, I'd rather wait and have everyone have access than to only have an Auction house for those who bought Factions!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

It does seem people want this game to become like Diablo.

How many people who played that actually reached level99? Most got sick of the damn thing before then, specially since once you picked your skills they were fixed.

Lvl20 is a perfectly fine max level. You have plenty of health, plenty of stat points, plenty of skills to choose from. I'm just thankful they removed the 'Refund Points' thing.

Wrong thread? I don't think anyone here is arguing for a higher level cap...

ZenMonkey · Apr 20, 2006, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Interesting points but doesn’t MMRPG the first M for Massive imply that a large group of players have to work together to meet a certain goal? I can understand being put off by the lack of maturity of certain players taking away from the fun but seriously if you want to play a MMRPG your going to have to put up with it.

IMHO to make an mmrpg an mmrpg you either need to include stuff that takes a large group effort to unlock certain areas (the war effort in wow for instance) or have some kind of pvp function. There has to be some kind of large interaction between players.

Otherwise it’s an MRPG. I’m not arguing that the ones out there aren’t lacking in function but maybe there’s a market out there that is just waiting to be filled. This would allow developers to focus on better story lines and not have to worry so much about balancing issues. No one can deny single player rpgs get way cooler powers!

Semantics I know.

I understand I’m an outsider looking in. Many of you fell in love with certain aspects of the first game and find it lacking in the second one. Hopefully they will hear your complaints and try to fix them or you’ll play the game and find out some of your concerns weren’t warranted.

I know the attitude of you shouldn’t get to play x instance because you didn’t earn it, its a huge debate on WOW. But lets be honest the reason WOW is doing so well is because of all the casual players. If guild wars decides to leave casual players behind it’s only going to hurt sales in the long run. I’m pretty excited about the direction Factions is going but it’s a shame it looks like it will be alienating a group of devoted GW players.

Mordakai · Apr 20, 2006, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenMonkey

Interesting points but doesn’t MMRPG the first M for Massive imply that a large group of players have to work together to meet a certain goal?

Technically, Anet refers to Guild Wars as a CORP: Competitive Online Role-Playing Game. But, I get your point.

EDIT: or is it Cooperative? Where's Loviatar when you need him! Community would also work...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenMonkey

I know the attitude of you shouldn’t get to play x instance because you didn’t earn it, its a huge debate on WOW. But lets be honest the reason WOW is doing so well is because of all the casual players. If guild wars decides to leave casual players behind it’s only going to hurt sales in the long run. I’m pretty excited about the direction Factions is going but it’s a shame it looks like it will be alienating a group of devoted GW players.

I can't see how WoW attracts "casual" players. The grind, the 60-level cap, the high level content and armor quests all scream "hardcore" to me.

Not to say there aren't "hardcore" players in Guild Wars, but the beauty of it is you don't have to be hardcore to enjoy it! No monthly fees, with collector's items and armor means I can play as little as I want and have max armor and weapons and still have fun.

WasAGuest · Apr 20, 2006, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I can't see how WoW attracts "casual" players. The grind, the 60-level cap, the high level content and armor quests all scream "hardcore" to me.

Not to say there aren't "hardcore" players in Guild Wars, but the beauty of it is you don't have to be hardcore to enjoy it! No monthly fees, with collector's items and armor means I can play as little as I want and have max armor and weapons and still have fun.

According to a RL friend that got me hooked on GW and then left for WoW (the block head) so he and his wife could join up (and too think, I intruduced them.. grrrr), he claims the early game is very casual and easy to play. No experience in it myself, so that's second hand. ZenMonkey could confirm that or refute it for accuracy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenMonkey

IMHO to make an mmrpg an mmrpg you either need to include stuff that takes a large group effort to unlock certain areas (the war effort in wow for instance) or have some kind of pvp function. There has to be some kind of large interaction between players.

Hmm, partially. It doesn't have to be competitive though. I posted this in Sanitarium some time ago and watched it go no where... but the thought was:

Rather than the challenge missions or competitive missions; adopt a pure co-op mission with multiple goals randomly handed out to several small teams (ie, 3 teams of 4). Each team works to accomplish it's goals during the same mission.
One very easy example is that "open the gate" with pre-searing Chapter 1. The players need to work together to open the gate. What if an entire team needed to battle their way to a "gate switch" and allow the other team(s) entrance; while those waiting to get in hold off wave after wave of foes.

It could be elaborated on and would need tweaking to get it to work, but instead of creative PvE, the competitve forces of darkness swept in...

This of course enters into the realm of "could've would've" and so means little unless it's adopted further down. But, the point was, rather than teams pitted against each other, teams could be placed together to fight ever more powerful foes and challenges.... I think you kinda hinted at that though as well...

MSecorsky · Apr 20, 2006, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

Rather than the challenge missions or competitive missions; adopt a pure co-op mission with multiple goals randomly handed out to several small teams (ie, 3 teams of 4). Each team works to accomplish it's goals during the same mission.
One very easy example is that "open the gate" with pre-searing Chapter 1. The players need to work together to open the gate. What if an entire team needed to battle their way to a "gate switch" and allow the other team(s) entrance; while those waiting to get in hold off wave after wave of foes.

Actually, now that you mention it... there are these things as well. Gaile mentioned that the missions where the Kurzick and Luxom work against Shinto require the opposing faction teams to work together. I'd forgotten about that until the memory kick.

ZenMonkey · Apr 20, 2006, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Mordakai -

Either way the word competitive is used in the description

I agree with you on the points brought against WOW. However a large base of WOW players are casual players. You can do most instances up to lvl 50 with 3 players. You can get to lvl 40 with just two players. There are a lot of lvl 60 players that feel left out because high-end instances aren’t for the casual player. Your looking at 20+ man raids where you have to have the right gear just to survive. That means regrinding the same instance to ensure every guild member has good gear to move on to the next. It got so boring replaying MC for 900th time I chose to play the pvp portion instead , hence my curiosity for Factions.

Anyways I digress, it’s because of the casual players you see Blizzard making raids more difficult but needing less players to participate. They have adjusted to the needs of the casual players because quite frankly that’s where most of their income is coming from.

Anyways I see all your points and a lot of them are the reason I’m interested in GW. A game where skill is the winning factor and not gear. But for me it’s the competitive aspect that draws me.

WasAGuest-

Excellent ideas. I think there is room for both competitive gameplay and teamwork gameplay.

Factions seemes to be adressing the complaint of most reviews that pve and pvp seemed like seperate ideas. Factions seems to mainly be adressing these complaints.

Ofcourse reviewers are usually hardcore gamers

WasAGuest · Apr 20, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

Actually, now that you mention it... there are these things as well. Gaile mentioned that the missions where the Kurzick and Luxom work against Shinto require the opposing faction teams to work together. I'd forgotten about that until the memory kick.

Really? Let me go get something to mop up the drool... ok, back.

If you can find a link for that, please share it. I've been really looking forward to something like this. More of this kind of thing would be a sure fire way to get me towards getting Factions. - I would die laughing it was in the FPE and I missed it in my rushing about. lol

Course, was she meaning that those alligned with Kurzicks and Luxons would just eventually just ignore each other's "faction" as all players really did in Chapter 1? IE. the lore of Chapter 1 - we were all supposed to be tied in one way or another to a guild that only just came together to fight the Charr... I wonder. Yea, please share that if you can find it. I've not seen anything like it mentioned before I posted it.

Speaking of memory jogs: This sort of applies to some people's fear of the PvP and PvE intergration. In that flop of a game Asheron's Call 2, there were areas where main quests took place and the fool devs placed these areas within PvP flagged zones. This resulted in PvEers spending an hour or so getting a group together, heading towards the quest area and getting wiped out by gankers (those who had built their characters to take out players rather than survive a mob attack - game was really unbalanced). Not only did this utterly destroy the PvEers enjoyment of the game, it made many permanetly wary of griefing*. Unfortunatly, due to this, griefing has been linked to PvP. Both of which are vastly different. Up untill Factions, I haven't seen this sort of situation "hinted" at, and that was good.
In Factions, however, I have seen mention of this play style in the competitive missions, that each team has goals that need to be done and "skirmishes" may take place. This is only slightly different from the griefing that took place in AC2... hence many peoples* distaste for those upcoming missions.

*Griefing was the worst in Diablo, which also is the game Jeff Strain bragged about griefing someone in. So it's no wonder many people are wary of that.

Why did I bring that up? Well, conversation really, but also to ask if that is how the competitive missions are supposed to work. My play in Jade, as said before, was limited: I dropped several times due to verbal abuse (that was entertaining - hehe); my team got attacked before really getting into doing anything and everyone but me dropped as soon as the score went south (like losing a match was the end of the world or something /shrug) and then finally the other team completely dropped out when we got ahead... ahh good times. Opinions?

EternalTempest · Apr 20, 2006, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Ack I love the PvE vs PvP arugments...

This game is PvE and PvP both. The developer in the radio interview even said some of the new mixed PvE and PvP content was to help because there aware the Pve "Only" and PvP "Only" don't get a long at times.

This game allows you to do both. PvE Only, PvP Only or to get the full experience the game can offer you can do both.